2013-03-18T00:34:16  <the9a3eedi> just to make sure I'm understanding right.. what does the trigger in the capture engine do?
2013-03-18T00:34:51  <the9a3eedi> Does it cause the engine to start logging everything? Or is it just to specify what type of event should the capture engine watch?
2013-03-18T00:37:46  <the9a3eedi> it doesn't seem to be very clear from the comments and from the readme
2013-03-18T01:11:39  <kiwichris> the9a3eedi, think of a logic anaylzer. You set the trigger, and then what is captured.
2013-03-18T01:12:14  <kiwichris> You can set the edges on the signals and sometimes the state of some signals.
2013-03-18T01:12:26  <kiwichris> Once triggered the capture runs.
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2013-03-18T02:29:41  <the9a3eedi> I see. I haven't used a logic analyzer though I've seen one used before. But it makes sense now, thanks
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2013-03-18T02:49:04  <sebhub> good morning
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2013-03-18T08:08:06  <dhananjay> kiwichris: Thanks. But I plan to create a bare arch VM and test it.
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2013-03-18T13:40:44  <DrJoel> gedare.. I am just hanging around long enough to fill in basics for our GSOC application. Opens in 20 minutes. Will you be here that long?
2013-03-18T13:41:04  <DrJoel> I will fix the comments. I have an appointment which likely means I will have plenty of waiting time to fix that.
2013-03-18T13:41:05  <gedare> maybe. caregiver is sick today so A is at home
2013-03-18T13:41:22  <gedare> napping now so I have a little time to get real work done
2013-03-18T13:41:44  <gedare> not much spare time today.
2013-03-18T13:41:48  <DrJoel> :( on caregiver
2013-03-18T13:41:58  <DrJoel> ok.. I shuold be able to do the basic app myself.
2013-03-18T13:42:35  <DrJoel> I don't know how many org admins we can have initially but I am prone to list you as co-admin first since Chris is swamped and we have been discussing this.
2013-03-18T13:42:45  <DrJoel> I think we can add others if we are accepted.
2013-03-18T13:44:12  <YatharthROCK> gedare, Can I programmatically control whether electricity flows or not through a circuit using an Arduino? Can I hook that up to a Buletooth dongle to communicate with an Android?
2013-03-18T13:45:11  <gedare> DrJoel: ok
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2013-03-18T13:46:59  <gedare> YatharthROCK: this is general embedded systems stuff, look on google or find a book on designing embedded systems... short answer, you can  control electricity with a microprocessor, if you want to use Bluetooth you will need software support for the dongle probably. Arduino has lots of online support and software available.
2013-03-18T13:47:46  <YatharthROCK_> gedare, OK I will. Sorry. I'll look up an Arduino forum and channel...
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2013-03-18T13:48:55  <gedare> YatharthROCK: it's ok. you'll just get better answers from others anyway :)
2013-03-18T13:49:23  <YatharthROCK_> gedare, /join #arduino worked prety well. 10x
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2013-03-18T13:54:40  <gedare> ah, that reminds me.. DrJoel your new irc client has some weird signoff message(s?)
2013-03-18T13:56:47  <DrJoel> kiwichris noticed one and passed it along .. like depression is just anger without enthusiasm.
2013-03-18T13:57:07  <DrJoel> Should I invite you to a Google Hangout to see the screen as I fill it in?
2013-03-18T13:57:11  <DrJoel> or just chat questions
2013-03-18T14:02:34  <gedare> you can chat.. i think i'll have to go soon anyway though
2013-03-18T14:03:59  <DrJoel> ok
2013-03-18T14:05:05  <DrJoel> I think you need to register for this program soI can have your id
2013-03-18T14:05:21  <DrJoel> Yep
2013-03-18T14:08:21  <DrJoel> "New and Simplified BSD"
2013-03-18T14:12:49  <gedare> k
2013-03-18T14:12:55  <gedare> registering one sec
2013-03-18T14:12:59  <DrJoel> ok
2013-03-18T14:13:18  <gedare> busy page!
2013-03-18T14:20:59  <gedare> having trouble connecting
2013-03-18T14:21:52  <DrJoel> no problem.. I am sure it is slammed.. one new question..
2013-03-18T14:22:01  <DrJoel> What will you do to encourage that your accepted students stick with the project after Google Summer of Code concludes?*
2013-03-18T14:22:08  <DrJoel> I will put it as a TBD and we can write something
2013-03-18T14:22:52  <DrJoel> TBD in both app and Google Doc
2013-03-18T14:23:46  <DrJoel> Only the backup org id and the TBD is left
2013-03-18T14:25:01  <DrJoel> hmm.. need to leave.. is a link_id on the top of your page yet?
2013-03-18T14:27:44  <gedare> i actually can't seem to get to google, really.
2013-03-18T14:28:09  <gedare> i'll send you email later if i get to it
2013-03-18T14:30:12  <DrJoel> ok.. I will add kiwichris so I can shut down and leave .. the questions are in the google docs.
2013-03-18T14:30:25  <DrJoel> I want you as co-admin though.. ideally both of you
2013-03-18T14:30:49  <DrJoel> well what a dummy.. I can't save the app until I put in a link id..
2013-03-18T14:31:01  <DrJoel> I guess I will leave the window open and hibernate the computer.
2013-03-18T14:31:07  <DrJoel> Email me when you get the id
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2013-03-19T09:49:32  <gedare> Hi Hi
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2013-03-20T03:01:27  <dhananjay> Hi. What is menat by super core? I found in the documentation it is a foundation layer, but didnot properly understand what it is
2013-03-20T03:01:43  <dhananjay> Is it a unification of classic and POSIX stuff?
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2013-03-20T03:05:14  <sebhub> good morning
2013-03-20T03:13:25  <dhananjay> sebhub: good morning
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2013-03-20T04:16:54  <kiwichris> dhananjay, with the doco patch can you please limit the column width to 80 char ?
2013-03-20T04:25:14  <kiwichris> sebhub, I have added 4.10 to the source builder and it also downloads and builds RTEMS.
2013-03-20T04:25:44  <kiwichris> I will add building RTEMS to 4.9 as well.
2013-03-20T04:36:41  <sebhub> ok, I was quite busy with testing the gcc release candidate
2013-03-20T04:37:38  <sebhub> unfortunately the powerpc is still useless due to a bug known since last october with a patch since last october
2013-03-20T04:38:15  <sebhub> the embedded gcc users are second class in some respects
2013-03-20T04:48:12  <kiwichris> get the patch into the rtems-tools repo and send me a link and I will add to the builder.
2013-03-20T04:48:53  <sebhub> i wait now for the release and urge them to commit it for the next release
2013-03-20T04:51:25  <sebhub> i don't think we should add patches that are not integrated in a GCC branch
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2013-03-20T07:32:41  <dhananjay> kiwichris: Didnt see this till now. Will do.
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2013-03-21T03:10:44  <sebhub> good morning
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2013-03-21T04:18:07  <kiwichris> sebhub, about ?
2013-03-21T04:18:14  <sebhub> hi chris
2013-03-21T04:18:21  <kiwichris> Check this out ...
2013-03-21T04:18:22  <kiwichris> http://git.rtems.org/rtems-tools.git/tree/tools/4.9/newlib/newlib-1.16.0-rtems4.9-20090324.diff#n145
2013-03-21T04:18:37  <kiwichris> It removes the contents of the file.
2013-03-21T04:19:16  <kiwichris> On Linux patch removes the file from what I can see while FreeBSD sets the file size to 0.
2013-03-21T04:20:08  <kiwichris> If set to 0 it means the file in still included but the defines have gone while on Linux the file not present causes the next dir in the inc search path to be used
2013-03-21T04:20:46  <sebhub> ok, this is not nice, has the FreeBSD patch program an option for this?
2013-03-21T04:21:03  <kiwichris> I do not know which behavior is correct and what I need to do. I will look
2013-03-21T04:21:42  <kiwichris> It is this part here http://git.rtems.org/rtems-tools.git/tree/tools/4.9/newlib/newlib-1.16.0-rtems4.9-20090324.diff#n375
2013-03-21T04:23:39  <kiwichris> -E on FreeBSD.
2013-03-21T04:30:01  <kiwichris> sigh, that is a horrible issue to have to track down
2013-03-21T04:30:49  <sebhub> yes, it sounds hard to track
2013-03-21T04:31:24  <kiwichris> Once tested this will mean 4.10 and 4.9 will build the tools plus RTEMS
2013-03-21T04:31:48  <sebhub> on freebsd?
2013-03-21T04:31:53  <kiwichris> Anything
2013-03-21T04:32:13  <kiwichris> Ubuntu, Fedora, FreeBSD, MacOS, Archlinux
2013-03-21T04:32:18  <sebhub> oh, wow
2013-03-21T04:32:28  <kiwichris> Hmm no Suse
2013-03-21T04:32:46  <kiwichris> No one has tried and I have not set up a VM
2013-03-21T04:32:58  <kiwichris> or been given remote access
2013-03-21T04:32:59  <sebhub> i guess if you build all on cygwin, then the computer will work for months
2013-03-21T04:33:11  <kiwichris> Nice in winter
2013-03-21T04:33:32  <sebhub> we use suse, but i had no time yet to run it
2013-03-21T04:34:03  <kiwichris> I am having too many problems on MinGW. The MSYS rm command cannot delete a gcc source tree because some Java file names are greater than 128 and that is a Windows limit
2013-03-21T04:34:11  <kiwichris> Remote access ?
2013-03-21T04:34:15  <kiwichris> :)
2013-03-21T04:34:54  <kiwichris> I also build the NIOS tools for 4.10 but I do not build RTEMS cause the support was removed.
2013-03-21T04:35:03  <sebhub> i have to do this anyway
2013-03-21T04:35:30  <kiwichris> Hehe manage to fix with a host specific change for FreeBSD
2013-03-21T04:35:52  <sebhub> i expect to have nios support in GCC 4.9
2013-03-21T04:36:21  <kiwichris> Yeah that is great. Altera have done what they promised Joel and I.
2013-03-21T04:36:54  <sebhub> the initial nios binutils contribution was a bit sloppy, but easy to fix
2013-03-21T04:38:04  <kiwichris> No surpised given the binutils was not 64bit clean.
2013-03-21T04:38:14  <kiwichris> http://git.rtems.org/chrisj/rtems-source-builder.git/commit/?id=b78c1288b289d9f58bc80d66824d76dbdd31b508
2013-03-21T04:38:17  <kiwichris> Simple fix
2013-03-21T04:38:37  <sebhub> no, they missed some instructions and registers
2013-03-21T04:38:50  <sebhub> the 64-bit host worked out of the box
2013-03-21T04:39:01  <kiwichris> hah, low power version ? ;)
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2013-03-21T04:59:21  <kiwichris> dhananjay, thanks for the doco patch for the source builder. Applied.
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2013-03-21T08:09:58  <freenix> Hi , I am browsing the page "GSoC_Getting_Started". If I have done this, Who should I mail the patch and screenshot? the rtems-user mailing list?
2013-03-21T08:10:19  <freenix> Thanks
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2013-03-21T08:29:31  <gedare> hi sebhub
2013-03-21T08:30:57  <gedare> hey freenix. You can send your patch to rtems-devel mailing list, and send your screenshot to Joel Sherrill
2013-03-21T08:31:33  <gedare> firstname.lastname@gmail.com
2013-03-21T08:42:29  <freenix> Thanks gedare.
2013-03-21T08:42:42  <gedare> yep.. any particular projects that interest you?
2013-03-21T08:42:59  <gedare> i'm guessing you are prepping for gsoc2013?
2013-03-21T08:44:21  <freenix> Yes.
2013-03-21T08:46:06  <freenix> I am new to gsoc
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2013-03-21T08:46:28  <DrJoel> gedare are you there?
2013-03-21T08:46:57  <gedare> hi DrJoel. Yep. Chatting with freenix here who is hoping to apply to gsoc this year
2013-03-21T08:47:17  <gedare> and writing a paper. :)
2013-03-21T08:47:28  <DrJoel> :) Do we know them enough to vouch for them? New orgs can have a veteran org do that
2013-03-21T08:47:46  <DrJoel> I am holding up a gdb release and wanted another set of eyes on the patch
2013-03-21T08:47:58  <freenix> I have browsed the Open_Projects page. I want to do something about mmu or smp.
2013-03-21T08:48:01  <gedare> vouch for who??
2013-03-21T08:48:12  <DrJoel> I pulled a simulator/mingw issue and now have touched about 7 targets
2013-03-21T08:48:17  <gedare> oh, i think freenix is  student
2013-03-21T08:48:30  <DrJoel> freenix sorry.. I thought you were another FOSS project .. not a student
2013-03-21T08:48:42  <gedare> the name does sound like a project name, huh
2013-03-21T08:48:57  <DrJoel> ignore me.. long trip.. no sleep.. hotel reservation canceled and I had to find a hotel last night at the last minute.. just tired
2013-03-21T08:49:13  <gedare> freenix: smp and mmu are really good projects, but need to be well-scoped. if you have some experience with kernel hacking, or are good with C / assembly, they are good projects to investigate.
2013-03-21T08:49:23  <freenix> I am a student from southearst University of China
2013-03-21T08:49:32  <gedare> where's the patch?
2013-03-21T08:50:19  <DrJoel> I will email it if you have time.
2013-03-21T08:50:51  <freenix> sorry, I  have not  wrote the application code.
2013-03-21T08:51:32  <gedare> freenix: it's ok. I just want to help you to find a project that will fit your skills
2013-03-21T08:51:40  <gedare> DrJoel: i have a little time
2013-03-21T08:51:49  <DrJoel> freenix the goal is a pick a project that fits your skills and interests. There are plenty of types of projects.
2013-03-21T08:51:55  <gedare> i'm writing a paper, which can benefit from an occasional distraction
2013-03-21T08:51:57  <DrJoel> any feedback is good.
2013-03-21T08:52:36  <freenix> I am installing the development tools, and following the steps in the page "GSoC Getting Started".
2013-03-21T08:55:29  <gedare> ok freenix that is the best place to start.
2013-03-21T08:57:02  <freenix> gedare.should i rewrite a new application or just modify the orignal application in the rtems testsuite such as the "hello"? thanks
2013-03-21T08:57:17  <gedare> modify
2013-03-21T08:57:57  <freenix> Thanks
2013-03-21T08:58:21  <gedare> DrJoel:
2013-03-21T08:58:22  <gedare> +  if test "[$1]" = "always"; then
2013-03-21T08:58:22  <gedare> +    AC_MSG_ERROR([Sorry, but this simulator requires that hardware support be enabled. Please configure without --disable-hw-support.])
2013-03-21T08:58:22  <gedare> +  fi
2013-03-21T08:58:26  <gedare> that doesn't make sense to me
2013-03-21T08:58:43  <gedare> maybe it is out of context though
2013-03-21T08:58:58  <gedare> ah
2013-03-21T08:59:34  <gedare> i think i understand
2013-03-21T08:59:39  <gedare> it's weird though at first
2013-03-21T09:01:34  <gedare> +/* FIXME: Revisit.  */
2013-03-21T09:03:11  <gedare> 0003-sim-mips-Address-use-of-dv-sockser.o.patch: +/* Define to the sub-directory in which libtool stores uninstalled libraries.
2013-03-21T09:03:11  <gedare> +   */
2013-03-21T09:03:11  <gedare> +#undef LT_OBJDIR
2013-03-21T09:03:14  <gedare> that seems unrelated
2013-03-21T09:04:05  <DrJoel> Yes .. it is weird. Some simulators do not work with --disable-sim-hardware.
2013-03-21T09:04:22  <DrJoel> brb. but that undef needs to be re-added.
2013-03-21T09:04:38  <gedare> "Please fix this simulator."
2013-03-21T09:04:43  <gedare> i like that.
2013-03-21T09:04:58  <DrJoel> The "FIXME" is mirroring comments in other files.. that is how they do it. and all dv_sockser use should be conditionalized
2013-03-21T09:05:06  <DrJoel> brb.. meeting break
2013-03-21T09:05:06  <gedare> ok
2013-03-21T09:06:27  <gedare> it looks pretty consistent. I don't know enough about the gdb sims to really say much though.
2013-03-21T09:17:40  <DrJoel> I sent it to Mike Frysinger last night so he could comment. He wrote the bfin simulator so knows the right way.
2013-03-21T09:17:53  <gedare> k
2013-03-21T09:18:39  <DrJoel> hmmm.. that LT_OBJDIR is in a file generated by autoconf. I didn't do that. :(
2013-03-21T09:18:47  <DrJoel> so nothing obviousl
2013-03-21T09:22:19  <gedare> check AC version matches whatever is declared in configure.ac
2013-03-21T09:22:23  <gedare> if they declare a version
2013-03-21T09:22:38  <gedare> might be your autoconf is newer than whatever generated that source
2013-03-21T09:23:07  <gedare> (And, storing auto-generated files in VCS is lunacy!)
2013-03-21T09:23:08  <gedare> ;-)
2013-03-21T09:26:23  <DrJoel> I specifically used 2.64  because of that comment in common/ but maybe each sim directory is using a different version. :(
2013-03-21T09:27:25  <DrJoel> nope.. everything I touched is 2.64.. sigh.. maybe this was generated by something older than configure. :(
2013-03-21T09:28:22  <gedare> check out a clean copy and regenerate
2013-03-21T09:30:26  <DrJoel> good idea.. switch back to master branch .. :)
2013-03-21T09:31:45  <DrJoel> yep.. removed the same lines when I used autoheader from autoconf 2.64. It was generated by an older version
2013-03-21T09:38:41  <gedare> thomas has opened a can of worms i tihnk
2013-03-21T09:38:49  <gedare> and i threw in some leeches
2013-03-21T09:39:14  <gedare> you should probably submit a "regenerate" patch first, then
2013-03-21T09:43:26  <gedare> DrJoel: did the iso9660 project get finished/merged? it is still listed in open projects
2013-03-21T09:46:42  <gedare> i dont' know that I understand German humor.
2013-03-21T09:47:27  <gedare> sebhub: is there still plenty of work on the bdbuf project if another student came along?
2013-03-21T09:47:33  <gedare> also... for the filesystem test suites?
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2013-03-21T10:12:52  <sebhub> i think bdbuf and the filesystems are in a good shape at the moment, don't know if there is something missing
2013-03-21T10:14:31  <sebhub> i have one thing: the rename implementation is not posix conform
2013-03-21T10:16:34  <gedare> is that enough of itself for gsoc?
2013-03-21T10:16:51  <gedare> i'll put it down somewhere on open projects anyway
2013-03-21T10:17:09  <gedare> but i'll move those two projects to "retired"
2013-03-21T10:17:14  <sebhub> hm, i don't think it is a complete project
2013-03-21T10:17:24  <gedare> ok
2013-03-21T10:20:02  <sebhub> we still have a lot to integrate
2013-03-21T10:20:14  <gedare> from bdbuf?
2013-03-21T10:20:32  <sebhub> its quality is not good enough
2013-03-21T10:20:46  <sebhub> in general, there are some arm bsps for example
2013-03-21T10:22:30  <DrJoel> gedare that was kiwichris' project or at least he tracked it more
2013-03-21T10:22:49  <gedare> DrJoel: which one? bdbuf or fstests?
2013-03-21T10:23:49  <gedare> i'm just trying to retire projects that do not have enough left on them for a student to work on
2013-03-21T10:24:02  <gedare> maybe we need a pre-retirement stage too for work that needs merging/polishing ;)
2013-03-21T10:24:05  <DrJoel> gedare I don't know what the actual coverage of the filesystem tests is. I have some changes to the coverage reporting tool that need to be made to report on a logical module basis. So you could have coverage on RFS, FAT, libcsupport, etc as separate entries
2013-03-21T10:24:15  <DrJoel> ISO9660 isask kiwichris
2013-03-21T10:24:20  <gedare> oh. Ok
2013-03-21T10:25:26  <DrJoel> Check http://www.rtems.org/ftp/pub/rtems/people/joel/coverage/erc32/erc32-OsPD-20121220-1348/ there is plenty of coverage work left
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Bytes Analyzed           : 230024
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Bytes Not Executed       : 28524
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Percentage Executed      :  87.6
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Percentage Not Executed  :  12.4
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Uncovered ranges found   : 987
2013-03-21T10:25:45  <DrJoel> Total branches found     : 5090
2013-03-21T10:25:46  <DrJoel> Uncovered branches found : 1586
2013-03-21T10:25:46  <DrJoel>    654 branches always taken
2013-03-21T10:25:47  <DrJoel>    932 branches never taken
2013-03-21T10:25:48  <DrJoel> Symbols unreferenced:  44
2013-03-21T10:25:48  <DrJoel> Bytes in unreferenced symbols :  7288
2013-03-21T10:26:24  <gedare> ok
2013-03-21T10:26:24  <DrJoel> The reporting change would let us say "100% score", 70% FAT etc. Right now, you get a single number which doesn't reflect the areas that need lots of work well
2013-03-21T10:26:36  <gedare> makes sense
2013-03-21T10:27:02  <gedare> what do you think about encouraging mentors to "sponsor" an open project idea by tagging it with their initials?
2013-03-21T10:27:25  <DrJoel> I don't think it would take an entire summer to redo the reporting but that could phase 1 and improving coverage could be part 2.
2013-03-21T10:27:32  <DrJoel> If people will sign up, great.
2013-03-21T10:27:39  <DrJoel> I have three ideas I want badly:
2013-03-21T10:27:49  <DrJoel> 1) coverage stuff I just described
2013-03-21T10:27:54  <gedare> i know you always want a couple badly, and end up over-promoting them ;)
2013-03-21T10:28:07  <DrJoel> 2) simulator audit and addition to source builder
2013-03-21T10:28:17  <gedare> i don't like to promote a project too much... rather have students come forward and maybe guide them toward it
2013-03-21T10:28:44  <DrJoel> 3) redo add-ons to be a ports like thing similar in spirit to the source buider.. fetch, patch, build.
2013-03-21T10:29:30  <gedare> yes. addons is like the original "kit"
2013-03-21T10:29:54  <gedare> it needs to be given a facelift and we need a uniform way of developing these kits
2013-03-21T10:30:46  <DrJoel> I would like the source builder idea to address "after RTEMS add-ons". Source builder itself would be "before RTEMS tools" and include simualtors
2013-03-21T10:30:58  <DrJoel> Our configuratino management on simulators is all but non-existent
2013-03-21T10:30:59  <gedare> i would want a student to propose a generic waf-based infrastructure for building kits
2013-03-21T10:31:38  <DrJoel> Can we add that as an idea? In source builder, my impression is that Chris has a "kit" package which references multiple individual components. That is similar to this.
2013-03-21T10:31:45  <gedare> "This is correct since although RTEMS does have a select() call
2013-03-21T10:31:45  <gedare> it is not supported on tty devices." Is that still true?
2013-03-21T10:31:47  <DrJoel> Graphics kit would pull in N pieces
2013-03-21T10:32:10  <DrJoel> Yes. New stack is aiming to provide better infrastructure for select on non-sockets.
2013-03-21T10:32:10  <gedare> right.
2013-03-21T10:32:15  <gedare> ah, ok
2013-03-21T10:33:27  <gedare> ** Define a generic (Waf-based) infrastructure for building and maintaining toolkits.
2013-03-21T10:33:38  <gedare>  i added it as a line before the list of kits we have
2013-03-21T10:34:30  <gedare> i also added add-on packages to the list of kits
2013-03-21T10:36:27  <DrJoel> Thanks. I think taking a broad view of building tools, simulators, rtems, add-ons, and applicaitons is important. It really can have high payoff. The graphics toolkit and addons would be much simpler to update.
2013-03-21T10:36:55  <DrJoel> Hell.. even mongoose may need to switch to this.. and we can add ntp, and other packages.. like ports in BSD land
2013-03-21T10:37:07  <DrJoel> brb
2013-03-21T10:38:15  <gedare> i already have  RTEMS WebKit - packages for networked devices.
2013-03-21T10:38:40  <gedare> it would be satisfying to rename addons once we have some other kits defined, or move some of these addons to the right kit
2013-03-21T10:42:59  <DrJoel> yep.. would be better to have a "ports" based in waf that includes ALL of these!! And easier to manage
2013-03-21T10:43:48  <gedare> maybe but you still want some hierarchy and decomposition since likely users will only want to grab one or two things
2013-03-21T10:43:48  <DrJoel> Needs a name.. we use ports. and the rtems-addons module is already used..
2013-03-21T10:44:50  <DrJoel> right.. libjpg and libpng should be independently buildable. But graphics-toolkit could pull in a lot of pieces like arm-tools pulls in multiple packages
2013-03-21T10:45:13  <DrJoel> RTEMS Package Manager?
2013-03-21T10:45:28  <gedare> rtems-utils? :p
2013-03-21T10:45:43  <DrJoel> Great Extra Daring Addon Reusable Extensions (gedare)?
2013-03-21T10:45:48  <gedare> eww.
2013-03-21T10:46:30  <DrJoel> Gedare's Extremely Dependable RTEMS Extensions?
2013-03-21T10:46:56  <gedare> keep me out of this.. i'm not planning to keep it up-to-date!
2013-03-21T10:47:19  <gedare> we could reuse rtems-addons, if we like the name
2013-03-21T10:47:28  <gedare> although we'd have to replace it temporarliy
2013-03-21T10:47:42  <DrJoel> I like the name.. it would be the good first name. And packages to address first
2013-03-21T10:48:07  <DrJoel> so we can clean the repo..
2013-03-21T10:49:40  <gedare> yep. now you just need someone to do the work. ;)
2013-03-21T10:53:30  <DrJoel> :)
2013-03-21T10:53:37  <DrJoel> heading out .. meeting ending
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2013-03-21T16:31:06  <kiwichris> gedare, I see the autoconf mess was finally discuss. Did the original question get answer about the change in version ?
2013-03-21T16:32:17  <gedare> yes. i got a semi-private email about it... he ran into a different problem, which I forwarded to you just now
2013-03-21T16:34:06  <kiwichris> Ok. I will catch up with Matthew in the next couple of days and will help him sort this out.
2013-03-21T16:34:20  <kiwichris> The simple fact is you cannot ever ever cross-compile autoconf.
2013-03-21T16:34:53  <kiwichris> I found this out years ago with the windows .exe installer I did. In the end I had the installer build autoconf and automake when installing.
2013-03-21T16:40:03  <gedare> heh. nasty
2013-03-21T16:40:32  <gedare> i don't really get how anyone would ever trust a canadian-cross from gcc/linux to windows
2013-03-21T16:40:43  <kiwichris> Temped to say if we remove autotools this problem goes away :)
2013-03-21T16:40:53  <gedare> yep.
2013-03-21T16:41:05  <gedare> just have to push through the 4.11 release
2013-03-21T16:41:12  <gedare> and then let the proverbial shit hit the fan
2013-03-21T16:41:30  <kiwichris> It is a nice way to develop large Windows apps, how-ever you need to have someone testing the results
2013-03-21T16:41:49  <kiwichris> There is no feedback in the loop
2013-03-21T16:42:09  <gedare> right.
2013-03-21T16:43:49  <gedare> i need to get this posix keys stuff merged. i think it is close enough now
2013-03-21T16:43:54  <gedare> just need to take an hour or so to get it done :)
2013-03-21T16:44:13  <kiwichris> Nice.
2013-03-21T16:44:19  <gedare> there is still a big problem with the unlimited case, but it is a sight better than the old solution
2013-03-21T16:44:47  <kiwichris> What is the problem ?
2013-03-21T16:45:23  <gedare> if you have n thread and m keys, you can have n*m "key pairs"
2013-03-21T16:45:32  <gedare> because every thread gets its own private key for storage
2013-03-21T16:45:53  <gedare> the new solution lets you configure a maximum number of keys, and maximum number of key pairs
2013-03-21T16:46:04  <gedare> and pre-allocates key pairs from the wkspace
2013-03-21T16:46:10  <gedare> (keys is managed by object table)
2013-03-21T16:46:10  <kiwichris> If I add a thread does that increase the storage for existing keys ?
2013-03-21T16:46:30  <gedare> nope, they preallocate it all ahead of time
2013-03-21T16:46:36  <gedare> based on the estimate or configuration of key pairs
2013-03-21T16:47:12  <kiwichris> So if I say I might 1000 threads and 1000 keys there is a huge allocation at init time ?
2013-03-21T16:47:17  <gedare> yeah
2013-03-21T16:47:23  <kiwichris> oooooh
2013-03-21T16:47:42  <kiwichris> And that is what currently happens ?
2013-03-21T16:47:57  <gedare> yeah, especially if you do not limit the "key pairs" in your configuration, it assumes n*m
2013-03-21T16:48:18  <gedare> if you say you only have 1000 "key pairs" (meaning each thread uses exactly one key or whatever), then it preallocates only that many nodes
2013-03-21T16:48:58  <kiwichris> Ok
2013-03-21T16:49:00  <gedare> it's also broken right now if you configure with unlimited threads or unlimited keys, although unlimited keys is easy enough to fix, but unlimited threads is harder.
2013-03-21T16:49:22  <kiwichris> Yes it would be
2013-03-21T16:49:24  <gedare> so, it's still a little broken
2013-03-21T16:49:37  <gedare> but, the old solution did not let you do anything better
2013-03-21T16:49:52  <kiwichris> If this more a case of a key can be used in a specific number of threads ?
2013-03-21T16:50:16  <kiwichris> Why does there need to be relationship to the number of active threads in the system
2013-03-21T16:50:19  <kiwichris> ?
2013-03-21T16:50:27  <gedare> well...
2013-03-21T16:50:38  <gedare> you can configure the specific "keys", but then each "key" can be reused by each thread
2013-03-21T16:50:46  <gedare> so i could say i have 1 key
2013-03-21T16:50:50  <gedare> but then use that key in every single thread
2013-03-21T16:51:01  <gedare> they'd all have their own separate private keyed storage
2013-03-21T16:51:31  <kiwichris> Agreed, but that does not mean we need to be able to support that at a system level automatically if it is difficult or overly complex.
2013-03-21T16:51:40  <gedare> *nod*
2013-03-21T16:51:59  <gedare> this is what the student and joel came up with last summer
2013-03-21T16:52:04  <kiwichris> If you have 1 key and only 3 out of 10 threads use it do we only need 3 key pairs ?
2013-03-21T16:52:07  <gedare> i only saw it last week, it was missing from earlier revisions i looked at
2013-03-21T16:52:13  <gedare> yep
2013-03-21T16:52:26  <gedare> so that is the real configuration option we need...
2013-03-21T16:52:34  <gedare> this idea of "key pairs"
2013-03-21T16:52:39  <gedare> is more important than keys or threads
2013-03-21T16:53:18  <gedare> we might be able to restructure it so that keys really means "key pairs", that is... we ignore the fact that multiple threads may use the same key
2013-03-21T16:53:29  <gedare> if they do that, we just call them different keys
2013-03-21T16:53:33  <gedare> that may work...
2013-03-21T16:53:56  <gedare> anyway i have to go.. i'll try to get back to this and maybe cc you on an email about it
2013-03-21T16:54:04  <kiwichris> on phone
2013-03-21T16:54:09  <gedare> later
2013-03-21T16:54:17  <kiwichris> back
2013-03-21T16:55:48  <kiwichris> The important constraint is the max. relationship between keys and threads and not the absolute relationship.
2013-03-21T16:56:16  <kiwichris> If we could have a zero cost solution that would be nice but I think that is difficult is not impossible
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2013-03-21T19:53:03  <the9a3eedi> In message queues, is there any difference in behaviour between queueing a message and broadcasting 1 message? i.e. is broadcasting the same as queueing, except that it supports multiple messages at a time?
2013-03-21T19:54:55  <kiwichris> Yes there is a difference. The queue id is the same how-ever broadcast sends the message to all blocked tasks, ie n copies are made if n tasks are waiting
2013-03-21T19:55:07  <kiwichris> http://rtems.org/onlinedocs/doc-current/share/rtems/html/c_user/Message-Manager-MESSAGE_005fQUEUE_005fBROADCAST-_002d-Broadcast-N-messages-to-a-queue.html#Message-Manager-MESSAGE_005fQUEUE_005fBROADCAST-_002d-Broadcast-N-messages-to-a-queue
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2013-03-21T20:00:55  <the9a3eedi> ah, makes more sense now. I assume the broadcasted message does not get send to tasks that aren't blocked waiting for the queue right?
2013-03-21T20:01:24  <kiwichris> Correct, because the kernel has not been told who is waiting
2013-03-21T20:01:25  <the9a3eedi> I was reading the manual, but it wasn't 100% clear to me and I wanted to make sure
2013-03-21T20:01:41  <the9a3eedi> thanks
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2013-03-21T22:00:34  <freenix> Anyone can give me some advice on the "mmu support" or "smp improvements" ? Thanks
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2013-03-22T02:54:38  <sebhub> good morning
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2013-03-22T06:31:39  <freenix> I want to do something about "mmu support" and "smp improvements" in gsoc2013. who can give me some advice?Thanks for you reply.
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2013-03-22T10:46:15  <DrJoel> sebhub poking the bear in the a$$ with a short stick before you leave for the weekend? :)
2013-03-22T10:46:31  <DrJoel> I just committed your gcc testsuite change to the gcc head.
2013-03-22T10:46:36  <DrJoel> Waiting on the 4.8 branch to check out
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2013-03-22T10:57:00  <sebhub> thanks joel
2013-03-22T10:57:13  <DrJoel> thanks for the newlib patch.
2013-03-22T10:57:46  <DrJoel> I have emailed Steve Ellcey (the mips memcpy bug) about a .1 release. Do you think it is justified? mips broken completely and this with rtems?
2013-03-22T10:58:11  <sebhub> corrina suggested an alternative
2013-03-22T10:58:22  <DrJoel> what was that? I don't recall
2013-03-22T10:58:57  <sebhub> sry, which newlib patch do you mean?
2013-03-22T10:59:06  <DrJoel> yours from this morning
2013-03-22T10:59:24  <DrJoel> basically a .1 release of newlib 2.0 to fix mips and *-*-rtems* for thread cancellation
2013-03-22T11:00:07  <sebhub> corinna suggested to use a dummy function if posix api is disabled
2013-03-22T11:00:54  <DrJoel> Hmmm... but you wanted a macro implementation eventually which would have to reside in newlib anyway, right?
2013-03-22T11:06:02  <sebhub> this was the pthread_cleanup_* stuff
2013-03-22T11:06:11  <sebhub> its not used for the locks
2013-03-22T11:06:16  <DrJoel> oh..
2013-03-22T11:06:21  <DrJoel> ok.. I need to pay more attention
2013-03-22T11:06:45  <sebhub> i don't know if the cancel state is useful at all since we don't use the locks: https://www.rtems.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1247
2013-03-22T11:07:03  <DrJoel> Do we want to use the locks?
2013-03-22T11:07:25  <sebhub> just have a look at the PR
2013-03-22T11:07:44  <sebhub> it seems that nobody missed them so far, but i have a bad feeling without them
2013-03-22T11:08:29  <gedare> heh... sebhub poking the newlib megapatch bear?
2013-03-22T11:08:39  <DrJoel> That is Till's patch. I always wondered why we didn't push harder on it. I think it would be good to be addressed
2013-03-22T11:08:40  <gedare> hah.. i see DrJoel thought the same thing
2013-03-22T11:08:47  <gedare> guess i should have read back first.
2013-03-22T11:09:08  <DrJoel> I think this may have been because no one wanted to look under the rock we have turned over recently
2013-03-22T11:09:49  <sebhub> i was a bit surprised that i no longer get stdint test failures with GCC 4.8 and vanilla Newlib
2013-03-22T11:10:13  <DrJoel> Somehow it doesn't surprise me.
2013-03-22T11:10:16  <sebhub> I looked then into the patch and found some stdint.h changes that are not in the vanilla Newlib
2013-03-22T11:10:27  <sebhub> and this is very bad
2013-03-22T11:10:30  <DrJoel> Do they need to be?
2013-03-22T11:10:54  <sebhub> i have no idea how they originated
2013-03-22T11:12:16  <DrJoel> I don't want to get ugly .. but I would bet I know where they originated (but not why) and have never been run through any test suite
2013-03-22T11:12:32  <DrJoel> The why may be a hacky backport to the 2.5MB patch
2013-03-22T11:13:02  <DrJoel> Your gcc patch is committed to 4.8 branch and head. I closed the PR
2013-03-22T11:13:28  <DrJoel> I just submitted a patch to gdb for the next release. touched 9 directories under sim/. :(
2013-03-22T11:14:13  <DrJoel> All configure stuff where it was undetected if you were on mingw and couldn't actually build the simulator. And undetected that the simulator could not be built with --disable-sim-hardware
2013-03-22T11:14:39  <DrJoel> We are just all going to have to get our hands dirty with the tools and fix stuff.
2013-03-22T11:15:28  <sebhub> there should be no excuse to not commit something upstream
2013-03-22T11:15:44  <DrJoel> exactly but we have to wade through the outstanding pile.
2013-03-22T11:15:48  <DrJoel> binutils is OK now I think
2013-03-22T11:15:53  <DrJoel> gdb is close enuogh.
2013-03-22T11:16:03  <DrJoel> gcc is close if not 100%
2013-03-22T11:16:05  <DrJoel> newlib is bad
2013-03-22T11:16:13  <DrJoel> until we understand the 2.5 mb patch
2013-03-22T11:16:26  <sebhub> yes, we are now aware of the problem and things are improving
2013-03-22T11:16:35  <DrJoel> :)
2013-03-22T11:18:46  <gedare> DrJoel: kiwichris and I had a brief chat about the posix keys...
2013-03-22T11:18:53  <gedare> the preallocated key pairs solution is kind of bad
2013-03-22T11:19:05  <gedare> if you're familiar with it still in your head
2013-03-22T11:19:16  <DrJoel> The old solution was even worse .. much much worse.
2013-03-22T11:19:20  <DrJoel> brb
2013-03-22T11:19:20  <gedare> yes i know
2013-03-22T11:19:43  <gedare> but, i think it might be ok just to call the number of keys the absolute total number possible in the system regardless of how many threads there are
2013-03-22T11:20:03  <DrJoel> ok.. that is a reasonable solution ..
2013-03-22T11:20:05  <gedare> then the burden is on the user to ensure they know how many threads might use a particular key id
2013-03-22T11:20:24  <gedare> this ties the allocation strategy into the Object_Extend / objects table
2013-03-22T11:20:34  <gedare> and fits in better with unlimited objects
2013-03-22T11:20:46  <gedare> ok i'll either mock something up or request the student to give it a go
2013-03-22T11:20:57  <DrJoel> ok.. I am mentally overwhelmed at the moment.. I trust you two. :)
2013-03-22T11:21:06  <gedare> i understand
2013-03-22T11:21:10  <DrJoel> Have you seen http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/162128/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2013/173036#173036
2013-03-22T11:21:17  <gedare> i'm overcommitted too, so it doesn't matter right now
2013-03-22T11:21:46  <DrJoel> Free ads for FOSS projects with enough votes to get their ad for new developers in the stackoverflow.com rotation for free.
2013-03-22T11:21:53  <DrJoel> Jennifer is uploading an ad now. :)
2013-03-22T11:21:56  <gedare> heh mongoose.
2013-03-22T11:22:11  <gedare> it doesn't make a lot of sense for an rtos, but okay
2013-03-22T11:22:22  <DrJoel> That's where I heard about it.
2013-03-22T11:22:34  <DrJoel> It is to recruit developers to your project. Do we want more develoeprs?
2013-03-22T11:22:49  <gedare> the kind who go to stackoverflow to ask questions?
2013-03-22T11:22:50  <gedare> ;-)
2013-03-22T11:23:05  <DrJoel> I want the ones who answer questions (correctly)
2013-03-22T11:23:10  <gedare> hehe
2013-03-22T11:23:14  <gedare> fair enough
2013-03-22T11:23:27  <DrJoel> just visibility.. no cost.. so might as well
2013-03-22T11:23:46  <gedare> we should sometime brainstorm some more hacker projects whether they fit rtems current needs or the scope of a gsoc
2013-03-22T11:24:07  <gedare> it might be good to get some ideas that can help draw developers who may be interested in scratching an itch to code.
2013-03-22T11:24:12  <DrJoel> I wonder if a public google hangout for that would be good
2013-03-22T11:24:22  <gedare> ok.. i have to focus, only about 30 minutes left I get to work
2013-03-22T11:24:29  <DrJoel> :)
2013-03-22T11:24:30  <gedare> daycare ends early today
2013-03-22T11:24:44  <DrJoel> I have to pick up Justin about 12:30 so similar situation here
2013-03-22T11:32:33  <sebhub> have a nice weekend
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2013-03-24T11:09:14  <weiY> Hi anyone online?
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